Shabbos 141 – שבת קמא

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Today’s Daf Yomi Question:

Rav Yehuda says one should dry himself prior to leaving the river, lest he carry the water which is on him.  How can one walk in Reshus Harabim during a rainstorm?

How can we compare the case of indirect moving of Muktza in the Mishna – where he uses his shoulder etc. – to Rav Nachman’s case where he is using his hands, and perhaps is considered more stringent?

Why is the pouch not ‘batel’ to the child who is wearing it for play?

4 thoughts on “Shabbos 141 – שבת קמא

  1. Rav Yehuda’s Halacha is indeed hard to understand. At best it would be a Hotza’a Shelo Kidarko. But, to answer the question, we can borrow a concept from the Halachos of Hech’sher Tumas Ochlin. When you go into the water the water that stays on is MAch’shir since it is Leratzon. When it rains on you, the water is not Mach’shir and is in fact not even considered a Mashke since it is not Chashuv.

    Here too, you went into the river for a reason — perhaps to cool off. There’s a chance you will want to carry that water further with you. When it is raining you don’t want that water and never asked for it.

    • If I’m understanding correctly, your point is that whereas rainwater is batel to the person (out of insignificance), river water (which he wants on himself) is not.

  2. To the second question:
    Rav Nachman might have understood it that way. He said his Din in the face of our Mishna. He might have differentiated between the Tiltul being done Kedarko or not. However, that is not the mindset of the Gemara, and therefore the Mishna is even a bigger Chiddush to be Matir than the case of Reb Nachman.

    Tosfos on 44 (spilling over from 43b) explained that Tiltul Min Hatzad is only Muttar when it is not the Muktza object that you are trying to move. In our Mishna you are trying to move the hay and you do it indirectly, with your shoulders. That is worse than the case of Reb Nachman where all he is trying to do is get his radish out.

    —————————
    For the third question, it seems that the pouch is something that is important to you and is not the child’s pouch. You have in mind the whole time to get it back from him.

  3. during a rain not that much rain covers him that it would be considered an amount to be prihibited to carry [MB in the name of PMG] .
    Shulchan Aruch differentiates between the two as explained sinced by the tznon your doing out by hand. so maybe we could learn that the gemora was asking if in the mishna you may move with your body even for the need of a davar thats assur’ so here too it should be permitted atleast for a davar thats mutar.

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