Shabbos 35 – שבת לה

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Today’s Daf Yomi Question:

The Gemara concludes that we are meant to conduct ourselves stringently regarding the two opinions of bein hashmashos (i.e. melacha on Motzei Shabbos can only commence after the conclusion of the later bein hashmashos).  Since bein hashmashos in itself is a period of uncertainty (safek day safek night) why is melacha not permitted during the later bein hasmashos  since it is a double safek (safek sfeika)  1) maybe this moment is already past the real bein hashmashos 2) maybe bein hashmashos in itself is really night; as we know a double safek in Torah is permitted?

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10 thoughts on “Shabbos 35 – שבת לה

  1. Perhaps Bein hashmoshos isn;t a classic safek, but has a “din safek” . As such we cant utilize sfeik sfeika, as it isn’t a “doubt” but a briah that hashem made in the world with a din safek.

    Also perhpas not knowing how to pasken isn;t a safek. it isnt like a safek if meat is treif or kosher, this is a safek of how to pasken in general.

  2. A speculative Terutz: We are left with two opinions. One is Machmir during the first Bein Hashmashos and one during the second. We are Machmir to keep both. There is nothing else to that Shita other than to be Machmir. You can’t take the Shita and throw out what he holds.

    More to the point: The Tosafos in Nida 27 (first Tosafos) explains that we can’t use a Sfek Sfeika both ways, to be meikal on both ends. As in our case, you would use the Sfek Sfeika to our benefit to push off Shabbos until Reb Yosi’s Bein Hashmashos, and then end Shabbos early or eat Teruma early by moving up Bein Hashmashos to Rebbe Yehuda’s. Therefore we are Machmir instead.

    Besides, it is really only one Safek, if it is night. There might be many ways you can reach a conclusion of the facts, but they can’t necessarily add up to a Sfek Sfeika. We can say, the whole Bein Hashmashos might be of one day, and even if it isn’t, now might still be from the day. Obviously, we don’t do that, since essentially the Safek that we are having is one Safek, is it currently day or night.

    • 1) Of course it can be lemaaseh – we just learned that it is still around…

      2) Perhaps the Gemara is coming to answer the question of how did Bnei Yisrael toivel from various tum’os in the midbar – the answer being that Be’ira shel Miriam was indeed considered a kosher Mikvah. Had it not been considered a Mikvah, this would have generated much difficulty in understanding their life in the Midbar; which perhaps would have lead us to various halachic conclusions.
      All the best

      • 1) the Gemara only says how to see it-it doesn’t sound like it is still “in use”?

        2) the Gemara seems to be bringing the Halacha that it is Tahor-not just to answer a Kashya

        • The Me’iri asks your Kasha! He begins by taking note of the apparent lack of a practical application of this halacha. However it seems from his next words that indeed there is a lesson to be learned from here; that the water of a maayan is only tahor (i.e. kosher for tevillah) while actually inside the spring, but if the spring water is transferred to a keli it is rendered unsuitable as it now becomes mayim sheuvin. This halacha is implied when the Gemara states that Be’ira shel Miriam had a status of a maayan even though it was portable, and thus the water inside it was true spring water. The chiddush is that this only holds true in this case, since the water is connected to its source. In short, the din of maayan stated in the Torah (which is kosher for tevillah) is not referring to the water (which can theoretically be applied even if it was transferred to a keli) but rather specifically to water connected to its source.

          It would seem from Rashi that the actual water-producing stone is still to be found today at sea.

  3. I’m having a hard time understanding what Rava’s concern was with his servant. Indeed, the calculations of Bein HaShemashos are rather complex as far as when to establish actual nightfall. But isn’t that all more or less irrelevant as it pertains to the cessation of melachah on Erev Shabbos? That clearly needs to happen before the sun sets below the horizon. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that out. Why did Rava have to create such a large buffer zone?

    • The Ran seems to be asking your question! He therefore uses this Gemara to support the view (of Rabbeinu Tam – recorded also in Tosfos 35a D”H Trei) that Bein Hashmashos commences a while after the sun sets. He interprets the words (in the Braisa describing the onset of B”H ‘mishetishka hachama’) in reference to the sunlight setting, not merely the sun itself. This point of time can indeed prove elusive to the inexperienced individual.

      According to Rashi that B”H begins at actual sunset, let’s keep in mind that time was also needed for kindling the Ner Shabbos. He was instructing them to do that significantly in advance since their lack of proficiency about the upcoming sunset may not leave them with enough time for that. In addition, the exact point of (complete) sunset can also be tricky, as perhaps redness in the horizon can appear as though it is last vestiges the sun itself.

      • I was thinking about that mahalach of B”H starting even after the sun sets. But in truth, that makes the kasha even stronger. Because that makes Rava’s buffer even greater. If the sun setting on the horizon is not the beginning of B”H, then surely he could have told them to simply make sure to do everything before the sun sets.

        • You raise a good point… The Ran adds that he was also including some extra time to account for ‘Tosefes Shabbos’. The Korban Nesanel explains that with regard to Shabbos we are meant to enact a ‘harchaka betachlis hayoser’ (far-reaching buffer) he also adds that apparently Rava needed to use a siman which would be clearly evident to all, without any room for ambiguity (sunset can be obscured etc.).

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